It isn't Islamophobia when they really ARE trying to kill you
Privacy & Cookies: This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this website, you agree to their use.
To find out more, including how to control cookies, see here:
Cookie Policy
GOTTA LOVE TEXANS: Look what they did when radical Wisconsin atheist group demands that crosses be removed from courthouse
Elected officials in an East Texas community defiantly illuminated the crosses on their courthouse after an atheist organization told them to take them down. The move came after the county judge and commissioners voted unanimously to keep the four crosses on the county building.
Breitbart News reported that the Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) complained to San Jacinto County public officials about the prominent display of the “Latin cross[es].”
The foundation issued an “Action Alert” to its supporters on May 7th saying, “A concerned Coldspring resident reported to FFRF that San Jacinto County has the crosses up all year round and even lights the crosses during the holiday season.” The organization that calls itself a “nonprophet nonprofit” asked members to “Tell San Jacinto commissioners to remove courthouse crosses.”
Instead, local residents filled the large parking lot to the shelter. They also filled adjacent parking lots in a strip center and a community building across and down the street from the shelter. Vehicles lined the roadway coming into the town, and there were 600 to 700 residents in a building designed to seat 500.
Approximately 45 San Jacinto County residents signed up to address county commissioners in support of the crosses. People displayed large crosses and some wore shirts bearing “All in For Jesus” and other religious expressions.
A church member from the nearby town of Point Blank summed it up, “This is a standing room only crowd. This is a standing room only kind of community, and this a stand for a Jesus kind of crowd.”
William “Maddog” McCulloch, “invite[d] those people from Wisconsin to take the cross off my house.” The veteran warned, “It’s going to weigh a lot more when they leave.” “Go back to Wisconsin. This is Texas.” Another Coldspring resident dared, “Come and Take It.”
Terry Holcomb, Sr. a political activist and pastor of a small rural church near Coldspring, lit up the room when he told the foundation to “Go suck a tailpipe.”
Dwayne Wright, who serves as the county’s GOP chair, took this photo and posted it on his Facebook page saying, “THIS is how we roll in San Jacinto County! Not only did we not cower to the Wisconsin Whiners, we Lit Them Up!” Residents of the county of just under 29,000 people celebrated on social media after it saw photos of the illuminated Christian symbol on the courthouse.
Thomas Lowe reminded about the persecution of Christians around the world. “First they start with symbols, and then they go to Christians.”
Kimberly Young identified herself as someone “with a lot of spiritual beliefs besides Christianity” but she came “to help you keep your crosses.”
Resident Cloresa Porter warned, “The devil is alive” and “political correctness is a one-way ticket to Hell.”
James Holcomb and other students at Calvary Christian Academy spoke at the meeting. Holcomb called the demand for removal of the religious symbol “unjust.” “The foundation of this town is built upon God, and just because you cannot respect that, doesn’t mean you can take it away from us.”
Breitbart News has reported about FFRF efforts to regulate other types of expression, including speech in other places in Texas.
Several years ago, the organization toldHondo, Texas, it should take its iconic signs down. The signs in the community of 9,000 say, “Welcome. This is God’s Country. Please Don’t Drive Through It Like Hell.” The mayor was reported to respond, “There’s no way in hell we’re going to take those signs down.” The signs have existed since 1932 in the city just 40 minutes west of San Antonio.
FYI: FFRF never goes after Muslim symbols.
Reader Interactions
Comments
Leonie Z Pipesays
Does the Freedom From Religion Foundation make the same protests against the invasive mosques that are springing up like cancer nuclei all over America (and indeed the western world)? Or are they too cowardly for that?
Speaking as an atheist with maternal Jewish blood, I applaud these Texans for coming out in droves to preserve their cultural and religious identity. Not easy to do in today’s world of bullying and censorship.
Texas and Arizona were two states that I loved when travelling through them. Anyway, those lights are beautiful. Thumbs up to San Jacinto County!
No one wins debates. Both individuals walk away with the same opinion still.
I read with interest the battle of comments. I understand that idiot Atheists also tried to demand that “In God We Trust” be removed from American Currency.
‘Totalitarianism’ comes in many forms and this insidious demand that Christians remove the cross is another form of dictatorship.
Throughout history religions and atheism have been guilty of dictatorship tactics. Communists are atheists. There are good religious people and bad religious people in all religions. There are good atheists and bad atheists. Even philosophers can be wise defending freedom values or unwise defending totalitarian ideas.
We must respect each others right to believe in the existence of a God Creator or not.
It is a waste of time trying to convert each other to one way of thinking. All we can do is table our truth as we believe, whether it is true or not.
100% Freedom of Speech and 100% Freedom of Choice, provided it does not hurt anyone else and 100% Freedom of Equality are the essential foundations under the political banner of democracy to pave the way for freedom and peace to co-exist.
I am not Atheist or Religious. We must speak our truth calmly, if others agree fine and if they don’t agree that is also okay.
There is no place for any form of ‘Totalitarianism’.
Those Atheists that demand the removal of Crosses are nothing more than enemies of Freedom Values. And they must be stopped.
‘Anti-freedom of Speech Blasphemy Law’ must be outlawed in every Nation including in Saudi Arabia.
People have the eternal right to believe what they want to believe and have the right to say what they think.
Sadly, Christianity and Islam have both in history to the present day enforced the existence of ‘Blasphemy Law’ and that reality is what must be challenged.
‘Blasphemy Law’ is the superglue holding Islam together. Get rid of ‘Blasphemy Law’ and Islam will disintegrate.
Christianity does not need ‘Blasphemy Law’ to survive. It will exist without the need for ‘Blasphemy Law’.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for redress of grievances.” First Amendment, U.S. Constitution
Jefferson’s Letter to the Danbury Baptists
The Final Letter, as Sent
To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.
Gentlemen
The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
The people of San Juacinto County are exercising their freedom of religion by their public declaration and their banner is the Cross displayed prominently on the Court House itself which they are stewards over.
I don’t know if this is appropriate as a corollary, but to force removal of the Cross by an alleged tort is no different than just because alcohol is legally sold, a guest at a wedding may come drunk and make a complete ass of himself and destroy both the sanctity and joy of the event along with the peace and good pleasure of the other attendees.
I am going to venture that your poster is none other than Elizabeth (Liz) Cavell, a staff attorney for FFRF, though it could just as well be another Liz.
San Juancinto County, Texas has less than 29,500 residents and Cold Springs which is the County Seat, has less than 950 residents.
FFRF attacks these small communities across the United States with the goal of establishing legal precedent.
Sadly, people believe that they must be answered in court for every alleged violation of their outrageous demands. This is not true. The best thing to do is ignore them. Buhler, Kansas folded to FFRF not too many years ago and removed Crosses that had long been evident in the community. Then, a police department in a small community was sought to be enforced against for having the word “religion” in their official emblem. The Mayor to his credit told FFRF to take their business elsewhere as he would have nothing to do with their insatiable demands.
Just two short months before the ratification of the United States Constitution, the Continental Congress approved of religion as a desirable adjunct to good governance and morals. This is the same Continental Congress that approved the Declaration of Independence. Assuredly, Congress May not show itself hostile to religion in general and Christianity specifically as long as the form of practice is amenable to good citizenship and the peace and well being of its institutions and society in general. When practices arise being evident as hostile to those principles, only then may they be suppressed.
The Wall of Separation appeal so frequently trotted out is not to say there should be no approval of religious practices or even that government be bereft of religious influence. That is a remarkably foolish conclusion.
In this day and age that conclusion is almost academic.
Keep up your good work, Bonnie.
Give my regards to Mr. BNI
Reader, it is a different Liz who is in no way affiliated with FFRF. But she was making the point that although there is a reference to ‘separation of church and state’ in Jefferson’s letter that she posted, that wording exists nowhere in the US Constitution.
Yes. My apologies to Liz. It is good she brought the Danbury letter to light. I answered too hastily and after I had sent it, looked for this opportunity to both be corrected and to admit my error for not being more attentive.
Freedom From Religion simply means that you are not required by government (or religion or any other institution or person) to participate in anyone’s religion. It certainly shouldn’t prohibit anybody’s religion, but it does not mandate anybody’s religion or any religion at all, and you are totally free to stay away from ALL religion, while tolerating anyone that DOES participate in religion. And I don’t believe, as an atheist, that government should in any way prohibit religion and I believe that government should be neutral with respect to all religion.
It is true that the Constitution does not actually use the phrase “separation of church and state” and never formally declares such, but nonetheless Thomas Jefferson and others did use the expression of a “wall of separation between church and state” as a concept that they wanted to prevent the marriage of religion and politics. Many of our Founding Fathers were full and well aware that theocracy can creep through the back door by riding on the coat tails of a nominally secular government by directly influencing politics and dictating policy, beliefs, philosophies, and practices behind the scenes and thereby impose or prefer a particular religion, which is tyranny. Human rights would be flushed down the toilet if anybody’s religion can be mandated by government in any way. And this is exactly what Islamic fanatics and some Christian fundamentalists, such as Dominionists are trying to do. That is using the democratic system against itself to promote a particular religion; and if any one religion were to gain control over the government all other religions and social and political belief systems would suffer, because the tendency of religion is to persecute and stomp out all other competing belief systems and philosophies. And this has been historically borne out. Any religion that gains political power becomes oppressive.
I am an atheist & this type of behaviour makes me ashamed. The values & culture of most western countries are based on Christianity.
Since the Reformation we have little or nothing to fear from Christianity.
My mother was raised Catholic but found it so appalling she left the faith.
However she would consider herself a Christian.
To object to signs of the Christian church is ridiculous & divisive.
I have no objections to any sign of the Christian church nor any of the festivals & celebrations.
I wonder how many of these idiots celebrate Easter & Christmas.
These cretins would do better to turn their attentions to the real bringers of bedlam & disharmony.
Muslims & their arse lickers.
Many atheists are watching the wrong hills and attacking the wrong targets. Even guys such as Sam Harris, Bill Maher and Christopher Hitchens have recognized that Christianity is not the threat it once was, and that Islam is far more dangerous. It has been some time since Christianity has resorted to open threats and intimidation and terror attacks in the name of religion. Christians are not flying passenger planes into public buildings killing themselves and taking thousands of other people with them or using suicide bombers or employing terror rapes and beheadings to advance Christianity.
Only devout Muslims are doing that kind of crazy shit.
The Religion of Peace (thereligionofpeace.com) website is now doing their annual Ramadan Bombathon comparing the behavior of Muslims during their most holy month as compared to other religions in the same period. So far no other religions have done any suicide bombing or attacks of houses of worship during Ramadan and no kills. Even White Supremacists and Islamophobes have not racked up any kills yet.
A few years ago I contacted the FFRF in reference to a local H.S. nick name. “The Thunderbirds”. After talking with an unidentified women she referred to me as being a racist. Reason? i was acting against native americans. Never mind That the Thunderbird is religious symbol. HYPOCRITS.
I am sure that those devout Texas Christians wouldn’t be quite so happy or proud if it were a green Islamic crescent and star emblazoned on those same courthouses and public buildings. Or perhaps even a Star of David or a Hindu, Sikh, or Buddhist symbol, Satanic Baphomet, Wiccan, Druid, or any other religious symbol besides Christianity? (A star of David, they might barely tolerate, being a Jewish symbol, and Christianity derives heavily from Judaism, but given the history of anti Semitism in Christian circles, even among Protestant Christians, maybe not.)
What would people do if Muslims gain a majority in any place in the USA and they emblazon their crescent symbol just as proudly as these Christians emblazon their cross on government buildings in Texas?
Is that what people really want? Religious symbols of the dominant religion in the area on public and government buildings of agencies that are supposed to be religiously neutral? What happens if it is not YOUR religion, but someone else’s religion?
Steve, Our constitution and laws are based on Judeo-Christian values, so what’s the problem? If Muslims ever get to be a majority here, you will be dead anyway.
My problem is theocracy. I fear a theocracy. It is true that some of our laws are indeed based on Christianity and Judaism, but some of these same laws were often unfair to non Christians and even to Jews. And, it should be noted that our laws are also based in part on Anglo Saxon and Germanic traditions, which were pagan, and also on Greco-Roman laws, also from pagan societies. So our laws are not exclusively Jewish and Christian.
My point is that whenever a religion achieves political power it becomes dangerous. So I advocate a strong separation between religion and state. And I don’t care whose religion it is.
And separation of religion and state is not based on the laws of any religion. In fact, most religious societies anywhere sought to make the religion the law of the land. From ancient Egypt who made their Pharaohs gods, to the Romans who made their emperors gods, ancient Hebrew societies, the Japanese Empire, to the Puritans, Amish, and Quakers. It is a common theme in societies all over the world.
As I see it, a Christian theocracy would be little different from an Islamic one. And history has born this out. In fact, a theocracy under any religion is terrible. Tibet was under a Buddhist theocracy and life under such a regime was utterly horrid. I certainly fear an Islamic theocracy more than any other because Islam is much more militant, aggressive, and toxic than any other religion, but I am not a supporter any other religious theocracy either.
I agree with you. But today, it seems that the only religion that is also a political system is Islam.
Atheist groups go too far, demanding that historical crosses like the 70-year-old cross memorial be removed from a Santa Clara, California park.
Or demanding the 1925 World War I Memorial be taken down because it has “personally offended” some atheists. The WWI veterans memorial in Bladensburg, Md., is a 40-foot cross on a roadway median, and at the bottom has the words “This Memorial Cross Dedicated To The Heroes of Prince George’s County Who Gave Their Lives In The Great War For The Liberty Of The World.”
Or US atheists’ group that sued over inclusion of ‘Ground Zero Cross’ in new 9/11 museum. The Steel crossbeam that became symbol of hope after surviving Twin Towers attacks ‘screams Christianity’ and will ‘alienate’ atheists, pressure group claims.
I don’t see these symbols as creating a theocracy any more than the Ten Commandments that were on display in a courthouse that atheists demanded be taken down were Jewish theology.
I will agree that some of these atheist complaints are off base and are extreme. We live in a free country where people can express religious, political and social views freely.
I am an atheist. But I have no objection to a religious symbol on private property or on public property that infringes on nobody’s rights, safety or welfare. I am not bothered by historical monuments that have religious symbols or even cemeteries that have crosses. And as far as Nativity Scenes at Christmas time, as long as they are not endorsed by government, federal or local, fine. I disagree with such symbols and displays, but we live in a free country.
As long as religion is not being endorsed or promoted by government or being forced on the populace, I don’t care.
I am going to suggest to you that you have deluded yourself by succumbing to ignorance. Bear in mind I did not say you are stupid, I used the word ignorance and this is why.
None of us know everything. That is why God is referred to as incomprehensible. That incomprehensibility is suggested in “no man hath seen God at any time…”
I am firmly convinced you do not know everything. Indeed, were you to know everything, you would be God but as we all know, you are going to die as all else do. God is eternal.
And, we can discern His presence at various levels of our experience.
Truthfully, because you do not know everything in the same manner none of may know everything, you can only say there well may be a God, I just do not know who He is. You just don’t know. You cannot insist there is no God when there very well may be, you are just ignorant of the influence ahe has governing not only your whole being, but everything else with which you may have to do.
You may only be an agnostic and it is important you recognize that. If you ignorantly call yourself an atheist, what else are you wrong about? All of us must agree you do not know everything. That is the incomprehensible part of our experience.
This may change for you in the person of Jesus Christ who really is the One you must ultimately see.
You really shouldn’t confuse people with a false claim even you fail to acknowledge.
If something is truly incomprehensible, why would we even concern ourselves with it? Something that is outside of logic and reason and does not make any sense would be pointless and senseless and we could never know or understand anything about it. And if something is truly and absolutely beyond our knowledge, how can we claim to know anything about it? Revelation? How can anyone claim that any revelation is true if nobody can know anything about it other than the revelation itself? That of course is circular reasoning. And keep in mind that EVERY major religion makes the same claim to knowledge of something that is supposedly outside of human knowledge but has revealed itself to us through some holy book or other.
I am an atheist because I am not convinced that gods/goddesses actually exist, anymore than I am not convinced that unicorns, faeries, elves or other mythical creatures exist. As far as I am concerned, gods and goddesses are the same as other mythical beings. I am open to the possibility if there is good evidence for the existence of any mythical being including gods and goddesses, but I am not convinced.
Religious people are deluded because they claim to know something about something that nobody can know anything about. As Peter Boghossian, American philosopher, once said, “Faith is pretending to know things that you really don’t know.”
Human knowledge indeed is always limited, and I certainly don’t know everything, and science teaches us exactly that, that is why we from time to time have to revise our theories is because we are learning new things all the time. But notice, that religions NEVER revise their beliefs, because they believe they already have all the truth and that it is infallible. And, of course, they don’t have all the truth and it isn’t infallible.
How is it that you learn these new things? If these things you learn are new, then at any time before you learned them they were incomprehensible to you or at the least subject to questioning speculation.
Something is unexplainable that an observation is made of, yet has as its basis fact, even though the fact of it may not be fully comprehended.
The Biblical corollary is Moses and the Burning Bush. But let’s not get sidetracked with things you already ridicule.
Here is a fact. You are a sublunary being. For readers who may not know what sublunary means it is this, “belonging to this world as contrasted with a better more spiritual one.”
You may disavow a spiritual world yet you are ever committed to being sublunary because the witness of God in His creation demands you be. It is unavoidable.
Thomas Paine, a notorious heretic and obstinate ridicular of Jehovah God acknowledged at least that much: there is a God and His works are to be recognized in His creation.
By the way, did you know that you are spoken of in the Bible? Fact!
Here is another fact.
You as an individual are somewhat of a maverick and not ostensibly, I believe you actually pride yourself on being so. That is why you come back here and make claims which are false, i.e., you are an atheist. Correction Steve, you may only be an agnostic and nothing more until your dying breath, always ever an agnostic unless the grace of God brings you to repentance.
In your own words you emphatically state “human knowledge is always limited.” You are in a bit of a pickle with that in your wrongly professing yourself an atheist.
Now I suppose you are going to come back to me with different kinds of atheism. You may even do what another so called atheist did and finally confess that yes, he could not with any assurance say there is no God. That resulted in his considering niggling evidence there well may be a God left his only option to consider.
Then it gets scary. I will tell you why later. It is not what you think.
I am always amused by the charge of circular reasoning, especially in light of your ridiculing a desire for knowledge.
There also is your further error of things you advertise as beyond logic or reason.
Is revelation beyond logic and reason?
“But there is a God in heaven who reveals secrets…(Daniel 2:28)”
Steve, there are two black men who in their time were larger than life. They believed those words and committed their lives to them. As a result thousands upon thousands, millions of persons have had their lives changed significantly even without knowledge of these two men.
You would do well to learn the reason of the success of these men.
It is my thought you lie when you say you are open to the possibility of the existence of God. I can hope it be so, though I believe your mind is set like a trap, yet here I am. That by the way is a partial definition of faith. I am here to achieve a result in you, the truth about not only yourself by me also.
Lets’s start with something you can answer me. Should a person who has committed a morally offensive act be allowed to walk away from it without being called to answer for it?
We perhaps differ on our definition of atheist. I use the modern definition of atheist that most atheists use today, including Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc.
I know some people use the word atheist to mean someone who is certain that no gods/goddesses exist, and make a declaration that no gods/goddesses exist. And they actually say, “There is no god.” Such a position is logically indefensible because it states with absolute certainty that something does not exist.
If I say, for example that there are no people living on the planet Mars, that is an absolute statement, and can never be proved absolutely since it is a negative statement. But it is a fact that no people have been found on Mars, so Martians probably do not exist. But finding a single Martian would disprove a negative statement. But framed as a probability that it is likely that no Martians exist is a safer statement since it is not framed as an absolute.
The modern definition of atheist is someone who, while one may not actively deny that gods/goddesses exist, simply does not believe in such gods and goddesses. People who were once classed as “agnostics” i.e. ones who are not sure that gods and goddesses exist, would thus fit into this category since they still do not actively believe in gods and goddesses and have doubts about the existence of gods and goddesses. Perhaps it was a semantic shift for atheists to redefine it this way. But in this case an unbeliever does not have to prove that such a god does not exist, the burden of proof is placed upon the believer that such a god does exist.
As for revelation, a revelation that cannot be verified in any way is useless. If one were to tell me that Zenons exist in a nether realm beyond our universe, it may be possible that such a statement is true, but if it cannot be verified in any way, how does it have meaning? And how could one know that it is true? Furthermore, if we don’t even know what a Zenon is or a nether realm is, then we are totally lost as to even how to verify such a statement, since we don’t even know what these things are.
This is precisely the problem with religion in general. They use nebulous concepts with little or no clarity and most of what they tell us is unverifiable in any concrete way. And some of the definitions are even self contradictory. Humans obviously don’t really know what The God is, since they all differ as to what such a god actually is and wants from us. Every religion tells us something different about The God and every religion contradicts the others. If The God is unknown and unknowable, then people who attempt to state anything about such a being quite literally don’t know what they are talking about.
As for moral questions, many people often claim that The God, such as the god found in traditional religions is a moral agent. But I just don’t see it. By all observation, the universe appears to be amoral, that is, unconcerned with human morality and right and wrong. So thus if the universe was created by a god, and the universe is amoral, does that mean that the god who supposedly created it is amoral? And right and wrong appear to be human issues, and do not exist outside of the human sphere of existence.
I favor the definition of good by Neil DeGrasse Tyson, “Good is defined as that which promotes, health, welfare, and longevity.” And evil, thus would be defined as that with causes harm or detriment to health, welfare, and longevity. And since the universe seems just as often to try to harm us as benefit us, I think it is safe to say that the universe is amoral and indifferent to us.
Humans on the other hand are social animals and depend on each other for survival, so social rules are necessary to promote the health welfare and longevity of human beings in that society. No higher power is needed since survival itself and human welfare are the motivations to create such rules. The fact that no one wants to be killed is reason enough that we have a rule against murder.
I am going to break off further communication with you after this. I personally will not engage with you further.
Bonnie is a Jew. She can do all manner of things for good or for evil and she will yet be Jewish by heritage.
I am not Jewish and regardless all my efforts, there is nothing I may do to take upon myself the mantle of being Jewish.
Bonnie might even laugh within herself if I were to insist I was Jewish, even though everyone else knows that as far as the Jews religion is concerned I can never be Jewish by heritage such as she. I shall always be a gentile.
Bonnie may be Jewish yet she may not be religious. I am not saying that to offend her. I am stating it as a fact because I just don’t know.
She may be very orthodox and should she be, then in your carelessness you have lumped her among deluded persons.
I have been called a Christian. Should that be a true evaluation of me, I can only thank a Jew for it.
I am indebted In a manner that often eludes people, not necessarily because of the virtue of Jews.
I am indebted because of one Jew in particular.
That is Jesus.
It may come as a shock to some viewers here that the whole of the Christian Church was Jewish at its inception. Thousands upon thousands of believers in Christ at the first were Jewish.
Why I said I was indebted not because of the virtue of Jews, is because my indebtedness resides in the Grace of God alone.
Imagine that, me a gentile, became saved by the righteous acts of one man, a Jew, and the wicked hands of others.
I have long said the Jews had it right, “Who can forgive sins but God Only?” Then, wicked hands killed the most remarkable man on the face of the earth, a good man, a unique man unlike any man ever to walk upon the dust of creation.
You have a habit of moving about even as you lie, and you do lie. I surmise it may be because of your ignorance but you seem to insist on continuing in it.
I said you were identified in the Bible and believed you might at least question me where. You did not.
I asked you if you believed a person who committed a morally offensive act should be allowed to just walk away from it without being called to answer for it? Crickets chirping.
Your response in almost all your communications is to just go wandering off on a tangent and you never come to grips with the topic at hand.
You by your own example use subterfuge and cunningness to alter the definition of atheism. You make it almost unrecognizable from its universal understanding in the most perfect sense, “there is no God! Then you go on to make mockery of those who believe in Him not because of who they are necessarily, but because of your own dissatisfaction God doesn’t dance for you.
I am wise to you, Steve.
If I could prove to you your error, if I could prove to you that Christianity is true, would you become a Christian? Yes or no?
At present you are an heretic. I have no further obligation to you precisely because of your character as a heretic. Your refusal to stand still or at the least to acknowledge you take pleasure in being deceitful, releases me personally, that and a commandment
There shall be others to be approached by you and they too will respond, and you will think them deluded also and make mockery of them.
I don’t envy you.
By the way, what objection do you have with, “And I give unto them eternal life,” seeing you find it appropriate to include the longevity word in your missive?
Jesus said that.
Bonnie, nothing here is said that you should be offended. You are one of my favorite people. There are others here I have great affection for and would not have the pleasure of knowing except for your site.
Reader, no, I am not the least bit offended at anything you’ve said. But I do think this is the time to end the debate on this topic between you and Steve as it is starting to veer way off topic.
If you and Steve would like to continue the discussion, I will be happy to share your email addresses with each other.
It’s true, YHVH has a sense of humor. I’ve heard the atheist movement has been collapsing as they fight each other more than fight religious people. Lets face it most people don’t associate themselves with a group known for eating their own since Robespierre was killed on the same guillotine he used on his enemies.
I personally don’t believe government should advance religion, but obviously FFRF is a front organization to further globalist intent. About 4 years ago I contacted them via their website indicating I wished to join but I had one question: Their website indicated all their ongoing projects, of which everyone was anti-Christian. I asked it they were implementing the same policies and strategies for all other religions, including islam, i.e. in preventing prayer rooms in schools from being established. They did not reply, but I really only wanted to know what their real agenda was. If you look at their website now, 4 years later, it is clearly dedicated to anti-Christian and now pro-choice causes.
The problem I see is this: The globalists and Islam are using our freedoms against us. To them freedom of religion is only their religion, special exceptions, prayer rooms, accommodations for the ramadan bombathon daytime ritual of starvation in schools and workplaces. Seattle school teachers had been directed to welcome students in Arabic for ramadan (now rescinded). If you grant such things in public institutions for one, you must grant them for all.
BUT, that being said, the attacks on Christianity and Judaism are clear. We are a nation of Judeo Christian roots and values. Whether we are one or the other is irrelevant, we must stand up for the bases of the values of this country. Our communities are OUR communities and a commie/globalist foundation out of Wisconsin has absolutely no right to go to east Texas and tell them what to do and threaten litigation. I anticipate perhaps a new muslim settlement like Alabama or New Mexico in east Texas, or, if you build a mosque, they shall come. Then soon, they will be of sufficient population to get a commissioner elected and then the crosses on the courthouse will no longer be secure.
These are perilous times….
(all properl nouns that are not capitalized is purely intentional)
Seperation of Church and State ONLY MEANS faith cannot be used in making court rulings, and non discrimination of other faiths in favor of one. #StopBeingFooled #FightBack Leftist Federal courts adulterate the meaning of the Constitution.
Would like to see how Wise County,TX would react to FFRF if criminal islamophile dhimmitude was attempted there. In Wise county hunting is allowed out of season and they would probably get peppered with rock salt from a 12 gauge in broad daylight.
If atheists (and communists) really believe there is no God, why do they work so hard in their opposition to, and spend so much time and money in fighting against God?
I guess the Freedom From Religion Foundation forgot the Constitution states Freedom Of Religion. That means FFRF should get out of our lives and go their own way. And as for freedom from religion they need to go back and READ the letter Jefferson actually wrote to the church concerning separation of church and state.
Its funny that I didnt hear anything from this Wisconsin Atheist Group about the muslim Day at the Dallas Courthouse where all the muslims take over for the day, sit on the floor of the Rotunda, eating and praying all day long, but I guess you mustnt get the muslims angry because they may attack us…. wait a minute… what????.
How dare these East Coast self righteous uppity assholes try telling Texans what to do, I can only assume they aint never been in Texas…and no doubt they aint welcome.
End this muslim Day bullshit in TX and OK.
Hardcore atheists excel in cowardice. Never will they confront any other religion. They’re hell bent on eradicating Christianity. It’s great to see them lose the battle.
Im an atheist. My mother is a lapsed Catholic. I can assure you Im no leftie but I would agree that a lot of anti theists are.
Also a lot of Christians can be very stupid, politically correct & blindly ignore the threats of Islam by welcoming muslims into their places of worship.
Embarrassed to be from WI ; our new Demturd gov is not impressing me & the idiot group doing this is not all of us for sure. Glad I don’t live in city or college town too because I might have a frn stroke on how much islam is dumped here. I pray it’s not going to be Wisconsinstan GURRRRRRR
Leonie Z Pipe says
Does the Freedom From Religion Foundation make the same protests against the invasive mosques that are springing up like cancer nuclei all over America (and indeed the western world)? Or are they too cowardly for that?
Speaking as an atheist with maternal Jewish blood, I applaud these Texans for coming out in droves to preserve their cultural and religious identity. Not easy to do in today’s world of bullying and censorship.
Texas and Arizona were two states that I loved when travelling through them. Anyway, those lights are beautiful. Thumbs up to San Jacinto County!
BareNakedIslam says
FFRF is totally hands-off when it comes to Islam.
Mike S Goodmann says
FFRF only raises a stink about Christian displays. Other faiths appear to enjoy “free passage” from them.
BareNakedIslam says
Yes, I’ve noticed that.
allanivarsson says
No one wins debates. Both individuals walk away with the same opinion still.
I read with interest the battle of comments. I understand that idiot Atheists also tried to demand that “In God We Trust” be removed from American Currency.
‘Totalitarianism’ comes in many forms and this insidious demand that Christians remove the cross is another form of dictatorship.
Throughout history religions and atheism have been guilty of dictatorship tactics. Communists are atheists. There are good religious people and bad religious people in all religions. There are good atheists and bad atheists. Even philosophers can be wise defending freedom values or unwise defending totalitarian ideas.
We must respect each others right to believe in the existence of a God Creator or not.
It is a waste of time trying to convert each other to one way of thinking. All we can do is table our truth as we believe, whether it is true or not.
100% Freedom of Speech and 100% Freedom of Choice, provided it does not hurt anyone else and 100% Freedom of Equality are the essential foundations under the political banner of democracy to pave the way for freedom and peace to co-exist.
I am not Atheist or Religious. We must speak our truth calmly, if others agree fine and if they don’t agree that is also okay.
There is no place for any form of ‘Totalitarianism’.
Those Atheists that demand the removal of Crosses are nothing more than enemies of Freedom Values. And they must be stopped.
‘Anti-freedom of Speech Blasphemy Law’ must be outlawed in every Nation including in Saudi Arabia.
People have the eternal right to believe what they want to believe and have the right to say what they think.
Sadly, Christianity and Islam have both in history to the present day enforced the existence of ‘Blasphemy Law’ and that reality is what must be challenged.
‘Blasphemy Law’ is the superglue holding Islam together. Get rid of ‘Blasphemy Law’ and Islam will disintegrate.
Christianity does not need ‘Blasphemy Law’ to survive. It will exist without the need for ‘Blasphemy Law’.
https://allanivarsson.com/2018/03/28/apostasy-blasphemy-heresy/
Az gal says
“Latin crosses”? Isn’t that being wacist?
God is watching. Fight for the crosses!
Liz says
Freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for redress of grievances.” First Amendment, U.S. Constitution
BareNakedIslam says
Liz, from what I understand, there is no specific passage about separation of church and state.
Liz says
Jefferson’s Letter to the Danbury Baptists
The Final Letter, as Sent
To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.
Gentlemen
The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.
BareNakedIslam says
Liz, Way back then, he probably never dreamed he’d have to deal with Islam over here.
Reader says
Bonnie,
The people of San Juacinto County are exercising their freedom of religion by their public declaration and their banner is the Cross displayed prominently on the Court House itself which they are stewards over.
I don’t know if this is appropriate as a corollary, but to force removal of the Cross by an alleged tort is no different than just because alcohol is legally sold, a guest at a wedding may come drunk and make a complete ass of himself and destroy both the sanctity and joy of the event along with the peace and good pleasure of the other attendees.
I am going to venture that your poster is none other than Elizabeth (Liz) Cavell, a staff attorney for FFRF, though it could just as well be another Liz.
San Juancinto County, Texas has less than 29,500 residents and Cold Springs which is the County Seat, has less than 950 residents.
FFRF attacks these small communities across the United States with the goal of establishing legal precedent.
Sadly, people believe that they must be answered in court for every alleged violation of their outrageous demands. This is not true. The best thing to do is ignore them. Buhler, Kansas folded to FFRF not too many years ago and removed Crosses that had long been evident in the community. Then, a police department in a small community was sought to be enforced against for having the word “religion” in their official emblem. The Mayor to his credit told FFRF to take their business elsewhere as he would have nothing to do with their insatiable demands.
Just two short months before the ratification of the United States Constitution, the Continental Congress approved of religion as a desirable adjunct to good governance and morals. This is the same Continental Congress that approved the Declaration of Independence. Assuredly, Congress May not show itself hostile to religion in general and Christianity specifically as long as the form of practice is amenable to good citizenship and the peace and well being of its institutions and society in general. When practices arise being evident as hostile to those principles, only then may they be suppressed.
The Wall of Separation appeal so frequently trotted out is not to say there should be no approval of religious practices or even that government be bereft of religious influence. That is a remarkably foolish conclusion.
In this day and age that conclusion is almost academic.
Keep up your good work, Bonnie.
Give my regards to Mr. BNI
Reader
BareNakedIslam says
Reader, it is a different Liz who is in no way affiliated with FFRF. But she was making the point that although there is a reference to ‘separation of church and state’ in Jefferson’s letter that she posted, that wording exists nowhere in the US Constitution.
Reader says
Yes. My apologies to Liz. It is good she brought the Danbury letter to light. I answered too hastily and after I had sent it, looked for this opportunity to both be corrected and to admit my error for not being more attentive.
BareNakedIslam says
Not a problem, Reader. We all make mistakes, me more than anyone.
Liz says
Apology accepted!
Better dead than red! (Commie red, not MAGA red!)
NITZAKHON ProIsrael says
No, that comes from a letter from IIRC Thomas Jefferson.
The First Amendment was intended to keep there from being an official Church (e.g., the “Church of England”) but this is way, way overboard.
I wear a kippa; for a demonstration like this, I’d also hold up a cross in support of the Christians.
BareNakedIslam says
Me, too. Liz just posted that letter from Jefferson.
Steve S says
@ Liz, BNI
Freedom From Religion simply means that you are not required by government (or religion or any other institution or person) to participate in anyone’s religion. It certainly shouldn’t prohibit anybody’s religion, but it does not mandate anybody’s religion or any religion at all, and you are totally free to stay away from ALL religion, while tolerating anyone that DOES participate in religion. And I don’t believe, as an atheist, that government should in any way prohibit religion and I believe that government should be neutral with respect to all religion.
It is true that the Constitution does not actually use the phrase “separation of church and state” and never formally declares such, but nonetheless Thomas Jefferson and others did use the expression of a “wall of separation between church and state” as a concept that they wanted to prevent the marriage of religion and politics. Many of our Founding Fathers were full and well aware that theocracy can creep through the back door by riding on the coat tails of a nominally secular government by directly influencing politics and dictating policy, beliefs, philosophies, and practices behind the scenes and thereby impose or prefer a particular religion, which is tyranny. Human rights would be flushed down the toilet if anybody’s religion can be mandated by government in any way. And this is exactly what Islamic fanatics and some Christian fundamentalists, such as Dominionists are trying to do. That is using the democratic system against itself to promote a particular religion; and if any one religion were to gain control over the government all other religions and social and political belief systems would suffer, because the tendency of religion is to persecute and stomp out all other competing belief systems and philosophies. And this has been historically borne out. Any religion that gains political power becomes oppressive.
Ziggyblue says
I am an atheist & this type of behaviour makes me ashamed. The values & culture of most western countries are based on Christianity.
Since the Reformation we have little or nothing to fear from Christianity.
My mother was raised Catholic but found it so appalling she left the faith.
However she would consider herself a Christian.
To object to signs of the Christian church is ridiculous & divisive.
I have no objections to any sign of the Christian church nor any of the festivals & celebrations.
I wonder how many of these idiots celebrate Easter & Christmas.
These cretins would do better to turn their attentions to the real bringers of bedlam & disharmony.
Muslims & their arse lickers.
Charles Black says
Agreed Christians won’t kill anyone who mocks the Bible, Yeshua and YHVH God.
Steve S says
@ Ziggyblue
Many atheists are watching the wrong hills and attacking the wrong targets. Even guys such as Sam Harris, Bill Maher and Christopher Hitchens have recognized that Christianity is not the threat it once was, and that Islam is far more dangerous. It has been some time since Christianity has resorted to open threats and intimidation and terror attacks in the name of religion. Christians are not flying passenger planes into public buildings killing themselves and taking thousands of other people with them or using suicide bombers or employing terror rapes and beheadings to advance Christianity.
Only devout Muslims are doing that kind of crazy shit.
The Religion of Peace (thereligionofpeace.com) website is now doing their annual Ramadan Bombathon comparing the behavior of Muslims during their most holy month as compared to other religions in the same period. So far no other religions have done any suicide bombing or attacks of houses of worship during Ramadan and no kills. Even White Supremacists and Islamophobes have not racked up any kills yet.
thorkill says
A few years ago I contacted the FFRF in reference to a local H.S. nick name. “The Thunderbirds”. After talking with an unidentified women she referred to me as being a racist. Reason? i was acting against native americans. Never mind That the Thunderbird is religious symbol. HYPOCRITS.
Steve S says
I am sure that those devout Texas Christians wouldn’t be quite so happy or proud if it were a green Islamic crescent and star emblazoned on those same courthouses and public buildings. Or perhaps even a Star of David or a Hindu, Sikh, or Buddhist symbol, Satanic Baphomet, Wiccan, Druid, or any other religious symbol besides Christianity? (A star of David, they might barely tolerate, being a Jewish symbol, and Christianity derives heavily from Judaism, but given the history of anti Semitism in Christian circles, even among Protestant Christians, maybe not.)
What would people do if Muslims gain a majority in any place in the USA and they emblazon their crescent symbol just as proudly as these Christians emblazon their cross on government buildings in Texas?
Is that what people really want? Religious symbols of the dominant religion in the area on public and government buildings of agencies that are supposed to be religiously neutral? What happens if it is not YOUR religion, but someone else’s religion?
BareNakedIslam says
Steve, Our constitution and laws are based on Judeo-Christian values, so what’s the problem? If Muslims ever get to be a majority here, you will be dead anyway.
Steve S says
@ BNI
My problem is theocracy. I fear a theocracy. It is true that some of our laws are indeed based on Christianity and Judaism, but some of these same laws were often unfair to non Christians and even to Jews. And, it should be noted that our laws are also based in part on Anglo Saxon and Germanic traditions, which were pagan, and also on Greco-Roman laws, also from pagan societies. So our laws are not exclusively Jewish and Christian.
My point is that whenever a religion achieves political power it becomes dangerous. So I advocate a strong separation between religion and state. And I don’t care whose religion it is.
And separation of religion and state is not based on the laws of any religion. In fact, most religious societies anywhere sought to make the religion the law of the land. From ancient Egypt who made their Pharaohs gods, to the Romans who made their emperors gods, ancient Hebrew societies, the Japanese Empire, to the Puritans, Amish, and Quakers. It is a common theme in societies all over the world.
As I see it, a Christian theocracy would be little different from an Islamic one. And history has born this out. In fact, a theocracy under any religion is terrible. Tibet was under a Buddhist theocracy and life under such a regime was utterly horrid. I certainly fear an Islamic theocracy more than any other because Islam is much more militant, aggressive, and toxic than any other religion, but I am not a supporter any other religious theocracy either.
BareNakedIslam says
I agree with you. But today, it seems that the only religion that is also a political system is Islam.
Atheist groups go too far, demanding that historical crosses like the 70-year-old cross memorial be removed from a Santa Clara, California park.
Or demanding the 1925 World War I Memorial be taken down because it has “personally offended” some atheists. The WWI veterans memorial in Bladensburg, Md., is a 40-foot cross on a roadway median, and at the bottom has the words “This Memorial Cross Dedicated To The Heroes of Prince George’s County Who Gave Their Lives In The Great War For The Liberty Of The World.”
Or US atheists’ group that sued over inclusion of ‘Ground Zero Cross’ in new 9/11 museum. The Steel crossbeam that became symbol of hope after surviving Twin Towers attacks ‘screams Christianity’ and will ‘alienate’ atheists, pressure group claims.
I don’t see these symbols as creating a theocracy any more than the Ten Commandments that were on display in a courthouse that atheists demanded be taken down were Jewish theology.
Steve S says
@ BNI
OK. I see your point.
I will agree that some of these atheist complaints are off base and are extreme. We live in a free country where people can express religious, political and social views freely.
I am an atheist. But I have no objection to a religious symbol on private property or on public property that infringes on nobody’s rights, safety or welfare. I am not bothered by historical monuments that have religious symbols or even cemeteries that have crosses. And as far as Nativity Scenes at Christmas time, as long as they are not endorsed by government, federal or local, fine. I disagree with such symbols and displays, but we live in a free country.
As long as religion is not being endorsed or promoted by government or being forced on the populace, I don’t care.
BareNakedIslam says
OK, Steve, so we mostly agree.
Reader says
Steve,
I am going to suggest to you that you have deluded yourself by succumbing to ignorance. Bear in mind I did not say you are stupid, I used the word ignorance and this is why.
None of us know everything. That is why God is referred to as incomprehensible. That incomprehensibility is suggested in “no man hath seen God at any time…”
I am firmly convinced you do not know everything. Indeed, were you to know everything, you would be God but as we all know, you are going to die as all else do. God is eternal.
And, we can discern His presence at various levels of our experience.
Truthfully, because you do not know everything in the same manner none of may know everything, you can only say there well may be a God, I just do not know who He is. You just don’t know. You cannot insist there is no God when there very well may be, you are just ignorant of the influence ahe has governing not only your whole being, but everything else with which you may have to do.
You may only be an agnostic and it is important you recognize that. If you ignorantly call yourself an atheist, what else are you wrong about? All of us must agree you do not know everything. That is the incomprehensible part of our experience.
This may change for you in the person of Jesus Christ who really is the One you must ultimately see.
You really shouldn’t confuse people with a false claim even you fail to acknowledge.
Reader
Steve S says
@ Reader
If something is truly incomprehensible, why would we even concern ourselves with it? Something that is outside of logic and reason and does not make any sense would be pointless and senseless and we could never know or understand anything about it. And if something is truly and absolutely beyond our knowledge, how can we claim to know anything about it? Revelation? How can anyone claim that any revelation is true if nobody can know anything about it other than the revelation itself? That of course is circular reasoning. And keep in mind that EVERY major religion makes the same claim to knowledge of something that is supposedly outside of human knowledge but has revealed itself to us through some holy book or other.
I am an atheist because I am not convinced that gods/goddesses actually exist, anymore than I am not convinced that unicorns, faeries, elves or other mythical creatures exist. As far as I am concerned, gods and goddesses are the same as other mythical beings. I am open to the possibility if there is good evidence for the existence of any mythical being including gods and goddesses, but I am not convinced.
Religious people are deluded because they claim to know something about something that nobody can know anything about. As Peter Boghossian, American philosopher, once said, “Faith is pretending to know things that you really don’t know.”
Human knowledge indeed is always limited, and I certainly don’t know everything, and science teaches us exactly that, that is why we from time to time have to revise our theories is because we are learning new things all the time. But notice, that religions NEVER revise their beliefs, because they believe they already have all the truth and that it is infallible. And, of course, they don’t have all the truth and it isn’t infallible.
Reader says
The learning is too difficult for you, Steve.
How is it that you learn these new things? If these things you learn are new, then at any time before you learned them they were incomprehensible to you or at the least subject to questioning speculation.
Something is unexplainable that an observation is made of, yet has as its basis fact, even though the fact of it may not be fully comprehended.
The Biblical corollary is Moses and the Burning Bush. But let’s not get sidetracked with things you already ridicule.
Here is a fact. You are a sublunary being. For readers who may not know what sublunary means it is this, “belonging to this world as contrasted with a better more spiritual one.”
You may disavow a spiritual world yet you are ever committed to being sublunary because the witness of God in His creation demands you be. It is unavoidable.
Thomas Paine, a notorious heretic and obstinate ridicular of Jehovah God acknowledged at least that much: there is a God and His works are to be recognized in His creation.
By the way, did you know that you are spoken of in the Bible? Fact!
Here is another fact.
You as an individual are somewhat of a maverick and not ostensibly, I believe you actually pride yourself on being so. That is why you come back here and make claims which are false, i.e., you are an atheist. Correction Steve, you may only be an agnostic and nothing more until your dying breath, always ever an agnostic unless the grace of God brings you to repentance.
In your own words you emphatically state “human knowledge is always limited.” You are in a bit of a pickle with that in your wrongly professing yourself an atheist.
Now I suppose you are going to come back to me with different kinds of atheism. You may even do what another so called atheist did and finally confess that yes, he could not with any assurance say there is no God. That resulted in his considering niggling evidence there well may be a God left his only option to consider.
Then it gets scary. I will tell you why later. It is not what you think.
I am always amused by the charge of circular reasoning, especially in light of your ridiculing a desire for knowledge.
There also is your further error of things you advertise as beyond logic or reason.
Is revelation beyond logic and reason?
“But there is a God in heaven who reveals secrets…(Daniel 2:28)”
Steve, there are two black men who in their time were larger than life. They believed those words and committed their lives to them. As a result thousands upon thousands, millions of persons have had their lives changed significantly even without knowledge of these two men.
You would do well to learn the reason of the success of these men.
It is my thought you lie when you say you are open to the possibility of the existence of God. I can hope it be so, though I believe your mind is set like a trap, yet here I am. That by the way is a partial definition of faith. I am here to achieve a result in you, the truth about not only yourself by me also.
Lets’s start with something you can answer me. Should a person who has committed a morally offensive act be allowed to walk away from it without being called to answer for it?
Reader
Steve S says
@ Reader
We perhaps differ on our definition of atheist. I use the modern definition of atheist that most atheists use today, including Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc.
I know some people use the word atheist to mean someone who is certain that no gods/goddesses exist, and make a declaration that no gods/goddesses exist. And they actually say, “There is no god.” Such a position is logically indefensible because it states with absolute certainty that something does not exist.
If I say, for example that there are no people living on the planet Mars, that is an absolute statement, and can never be proved absolutely since it is a negative statement. But it is a fact that no people have been found on Mars, so Martians probably do not exist. But finding a single Martian would disprove a negative statement. But framed as a probability that it is likely that no Martians exist is a safer statement since it is not framed as an absolute.
The modern definition of atheist is someone who, while one may not actively deny that gods/goddesses exist, simply does not believe in such gods and goddesses. People who were once classed as “agnostics” i.e. ones who are not sure that gods and goddesses exist, would thus fit into this category since they still do not actively believe in gods and goddesses and have doubts about the existence of gods and goddesses. Perhaps it was a semantic shift for atheists to redefine it this way. But in this case an unbeliever does not have to prove that such a god does not exist, the burden of proof is placed upon the believer that such a god does exist.
As for revelation, a revelation that cannot be verified in any way is useless. If one were to tell me that Zenons exist in a nether realm beyond our universe, it may be possible that such a statement is true, but if it cannot be verified in any way, how does it have meaning? And how could one know that it is true? Furthermore, if we don’t even know what a Zenon is or a nether realm is, then we are totally lost as to even how to verify such a statement, since we don’t even know what these things are.
This is precisely the problem with religion in general. They use nebulous concepts with little or no clarity and most of what they tell us is unverifiable in any concrete way. And some of the definitions are even self contradictory. Humans obviously don’t really know what The God is, since they all differ as to what such a god actually is and wants from us. Every religion tells us something different about The God and every religion contradicts the others. If The God is unknown and unknowable, then people who attempt to state anything about such a being quite literally don’t know what they are talking about.
As for moral questions, many people often claim that The God, such as the god found in traditional religions is a moral agent. But I just don’t see it. By all observation, the universe appears to be amoral, that is, unconcerned with human morality and right and wrong. So thus if the universe was created by a god, and the universe is amoral, does that mean that the god who supposedly created it is amoral? And right and wrong appear to be human issues, and do not exist outside of the human sphere of existence.
I favor the definition of good by Neil DeGrasse Tyson, “Good is defined as that which promotes, health, welfare, and longevity.” And evil, thus would be defined as that with causes harm or detriment to health, welfare, and longevity. And since the universe seems just as often to try to harm us as benefit us, I think it is safe to say that the universe is amoral and indifferent to us.
Humans on the other hand are social animals and depend on each other for survival, so social rules are necessary to promote the health welfare and longevity of human beings in that society. No higher power is needed since survival itself and human welfare are the motivations to create such rules. The fact that no one wants to be killed is reason enough that we have a rule against murder.
Reader says
Steve,
I am going to break off further communication with you after this. I personally will not engage with you further.
Bonnie is a Jew. She can do all manner of things for good or for evil and she will yet be Jewish by heritage.
I am not Jewish and regardless all my efforts, there is nothing I may do to take upon myself the mantle of being Jewish.
Bonnie might even laugh within herself if I were to insist I was Jewish, even though everyone else knows that as far as the Jews religion is concerned I can never be Jewish by heritage such as she. I shall always be a gentile.
Bonnie may be Jewish yet she may not be religious. I am not saying that to offend her. I am stating it as a fact because I just don’t know.
She may be very orthodox and should she be, then in your carelessness you have lumped her among deluded persons.
I have been called a Christian. Should that be a true evaluation of me, I can only thank a Jew for it.
I am indebted In a manner that often eludes people, not necessarily because of the virtue of Jews.
I am indebted because of one Jew in particular.
That is Jesus.
It may come as a shock to some viewers here that the whole of the Christian Church was Jewish at its inception. Thousands upon thousands of believers in Christ at the first were Jewish.
Why I said I was indebted not because of the virtue of Jews, is because my indebtedness resides in the Grace of God alone.
Imagine that, me a gentile, became saved by the righteous acts of one man, a Jew, and the wicked hands of others.
I have long said the Jews had it right, “Who can forgive sins but God Only?” Then, wicked hands killed the most remarkable man on the face of the earth, a good man, a unique man unlike any man ever to walk upon the dust of creation.
You have a habit of moving about even as you lie, and you do lie. I surmise it may be because of your ignorance but you seem to insist on continuing in it.
I said you were identified in the Bible and believed you might at least question me where. You did not.
I asked you if you believed a person who committed a morally offensive act should be allowed to just walk away from it without being called to answer for it? Crickets chirping.
Your response in almost all your communications is to just go wandering off on a tangent and you never come to grips with the topic at hand.
You by your own example use subterfuge and cunningness to alter the definition of atheism. You make it almost unrecognizable from its universal understanding in the most perfect sense, “there is no God! Then you go on to make mockery of those who believe in Him not because of who they are necessarily, but because of your own dissatisfaction God doesn’t dance for you.
I am wise to you, Steve.
If I could prove to you your error, if I could prove to you that Christianity is true, would you become a Christian? Yes or no?
At present you are an heretic. I have no further obligation to you precisely because of your character as a heretic. Your refusal to stand still or at the least to acknowledge you take pleasure in being deceitful, releases me personally, that and a commandment
There shall be others to be approached by you and they too will respond, and you will think them deluded also and make mockery of them.
I don’t envy you.
By the way, what objection do you have with, “And I give unto them eternal life,” seeing you find it appropriate to include the longevity word in your missive?
Jesus said that.
Bonnie, nothing here is said that you should be offended. You are one of my favorite people. There are others here I have great affection for and would not have the pleasure of knowing except for your site.
Reader
BareNakedIslam says
Reader, no, I am not the least bit offended at anything you’ve said. But I do think this is the time to end the debate on this topic between you and Steve as it is starting to veer way off topic.
If you and Steve would like to continue the discussion, I will be happy to share your email addresses with each other.
Charles Black says
It’s true, YHVH has a sense of humor. I’ve heard the atheist movement has been collapsing as they fight each other more than fight religious people. Lets face it most people don’t associate themselves with a group known for eating their own since Robespierre was killed on the same guillotine he used on his enemies.
If Not Now When? says
I personally don’t believe government should advance religion, but obviously FFRF is a front organization to further globalist intent. About 4 years ago I contacted them via their website indicating I wished to join but I had one question: Their website indicated all their ongoing projects, of which everyone was anti-Christian. I asked it they were implementing the same policies and strategies for all other religions, including islam, i.e. in preventing prayer rooms in schools from being established. They did not reply, but I really only wanted to know what their real agenda was. If you look at their website now, 4 years later, it is clearly dedicated to anti-Christian and now pro-choice causes.
The problem I see is this: The globalists and Islam are using our freedoms against us. To them freedom of religion is only their religion, special exceptions, prayer rooms, accommodations for the ramadan bombathon daytime ritual of starvation in schools and workplaces. Seattle school teachers had been directed to welcome students in Arabic for ramadan (now rescinded). If you grant such things in public institutions for one, you must grant them for all.
BUT, that being said, the attacks on Christianity and Judaism are clear. We are a nation of Judeo Christian roots and values. Whether we are one or the other is irrelevant, we must stand up for the bases of the values of this country. Our communities are OUR communities and a commie/globalist foundation out of Wisconsin has absolutely no right to go to east Texas and tell them what to do and threaten litigation. I anticipate perhaps a new muslim settlement like Alabama or New Mexico in east Texas, or, if you build a mosque, they shall come. Then soon, they will be of sufficient population to get a commissioner elected and then the crosses on the courthouse will no longer be secure.
These are perilous times….
(all properl nouns that are not capitalized is purely intentional)
Marlin says
Seperation of Church and State ONLY MEANS faith cannot be used in making court rulings, and non discrimination of other faiths in favor of one. #StopBeingFooled #FightBack Leftist Federal courts adulterate the meaning of the Constitution.
Cleavis Nowell (@CleavisNowell) says
Would like to see how Wise County,TX would react to FFRF if criminal islamophile dhimmitude was attempted there. In Wise county hunting is allowed out of season and they would probably get peppered with rock salt from a 12 gauge in broad daylight.
Linda Rivera says
God bless Texans!
JESUS CHRIST is KING!
If atheists (and communists) really believe there is no God, why do they work so hard in their opposition to, and spend so much time and money in fighting against God?
Steve says
I guess the Freedom From Religion Foundation forgot the Constitution states Freedom Of Religion. That means FFRF should get out of our lives and go their own way. And as for freedom from religion they need to go back and READ the letter Jefferson actually wrote to the church concerning separation of church and state.
Andrew says
Its funny that I didnt hear anything from this Wisconsin Atheist Group about the muslim Day at the Dallas Courthouse where all the muslims take over for the day, sit on the floor of the Rotunda, eating and praying all day long, but I guess you mustnt get the muslims angry because they may attack us…. wait a minute… what????.
How dare these East Coast self righteous uppity assholes try telling Texans what to do, I can only assume they aint never been in Texas…and no doubt they aint welcome.
End this muslim Day bullshit in TX and OK.
xenonman says
FFRF only cares about displays of Christianity, in the public sector!
Classy Infidel says
Hardcore atheists excel in cowardice. Never will they confront any other religion. They’re hell bent on eradicating Christianity. It’s great to see them lose the battle.
Charles Black says
Most atheists are leftists too. It isn’t a coincidence that Karl Marx was an atheist too.
Ziggyblue says
Im an atheist. My mother is a lapsed Catholic. I can assure you Im no leftie but I would agree that a lot of anti theists are.
Also a lot of Christians can be very stupid, politically correct & blindly ignore the threats of Islam by welcoming muslims into their places of worship.
Charles Black says
Yep which is why I said most not all. Indeed Christians can be prone to ignoring threats by pretending they aren’t there.
Kathleen Woods says
Embarrassed to be from WI ; our new Demturd gov is not impressing me & the idiot group doing this is not all of us for sure. Glad I don’t live in city or college town too because I might have a frn stroke on how much islam is dumped here. I pray it’s not going to be Wisconsinstan GURRRRRRR